Paying hard-earned trucking knowledge forward, with four Small Fleet Champs

Todd Dills: It's one of my favorite annual opportunities of the last several years in trucking. The annual conference of the National Association of Small Trucking Companies, for four years now, the sponsor of our annual Small Fleet Championship recognizing and sharing the stories of business excellence for owner operators who hit and or cross that 3 truck threshold, On November 7th this year I announced winners in two categories, recognizing four total finalists during NASTC's Thursday night conference opening Transportation Trust forum. You've likely seen the news. Paul Rissler Transportation and CW Express took home the Small Fleet Champ title belts this year in their respective categories. Yet that's not the true highlight of the program for me.

I'm Todd Dills, your host for this November 18, 2024 edition of Overdrive Radio, where you'll get the opportunity to sit in our roundtable sitdown with all four of our Small Fleet Champ finalists that, let it be known, is the thing I most look forward to at NASTC. The talk that follows hinges on a couple of general questions I pose to everyone. Number one, what's been the biggest year 2024 challenges they've seen in their businesses? Answers run the gamut there and offer lessons for other truck owners similarly wrestling with business difficulty of various stripes. Two, what's next for the future of each business? Here there's a strong current that's a bit different from past Small Fleet Champ roundtables I've conducted. How to pay trucking knowledge forward to leave behind hard earned capability when the end of the line comes squarely into view. For some, those efforts were front and center automotive and general dry van carrier CW Express Owner Steve Wilson was joined in the talk by his son Steven II, in his early 20s and newly involved in the business.

Steve Wilson: Purchased three 2020 Kenworths, Automatics. Not really like automatics, but my guys are starting to love them and everybody wants them now. And we've been pretty lucky as far as freight and everything else. And we're supposed to give another company a quote on I, don't know how many rounds they had.

Steve Wilson II: 20 routes. About 20 routes. I'd say about 150 lanes in total.

Todd Dills: We'll also hear CW Express's fellow finalists in the 11 to 30 truck division of the Small Fleet Championship, Brian Brewer and Jennifer Leasure of mostly local scrap and dump hauler Brian Brewer Trucking.

Brian Brewer: I get it. We all have families and we have lives out of here, but sometimes, you know, I don't ask for a lot, but when I do, it's what needs to be done for the business itself.

Todd Dills: Likewise, Competing in the 3 to 10 truck division, Jamie Hagen of mostly dry van carrier Hell Bent Express, and Paul and Michelle Rissler of Paul Rissler Transportation running reefer.

Jamie Hagen: So that's my thing is like you guys are talking about, what do you do when it comes time to, you know, you want to retire? What do you do with this now? Like, that's, to me, it's, it's in my mind. It's going to be out there digitally. You know what I mean?

Paul Rissler: Like, with all of us here, we take it for granted what we know. And do you know how to work on trucks? I do, too. People come in there and say, I have a truck cut in half. I'm stretching. And they say, where do you go from here? They walk in there, they just it their minds boggled, and we just take it for granted.

Todd Dills: On the other side of a break, we'll dive into the talk conducted just a couple days after the presidential election. There's at least one political joke made and references to the election otherwise, FYI. Yet where it's all headed is perhaps best previewed with the notion of legacy. Here's CW Express, Steve Wilson again summing up one of his own biggest goals for these next years.

Steve Wilson: After all that happened to me and, I kept everything to myself and done everything, I got grandbabies now. You know what? I want to build a legacy for them kids. And, hey, my grandpa built that. That's what I'm here for.

Todd Dills: Keep tuned.

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Jamie Hagen: I'm Jamie Hagen of Hell Bent Express. What has changed? Donald Trump has become president. Yeah, this is like a, ah, time capsule, right?

Todd Dills: No, President Elect.

Jamie Hagen: President Elect. Yeah, he hasn't taken office yet, so nothing's changed really. we sold a few trucks. Poor Decision had a customer reach out to us and wanted us to double our amount of work. So Poor Decision to sell. Probably should have kept those. But you know what, they sell trucks. So we'll buy more.

Todd Dills: So, so you made, made decisions. all of a sudden you get.

Jamie Hagen: I'm like starting to panic. I'm like, well these trucks are open. Instead of hiring, let's just sell. Okay, so we sold and then now the guy comes to us and says, you know guys, you don't bang up job, let's add. And I'm like, oh, where were you two weeks ago? Okay, so yeah, that's kind of what's been happening.

Todd Dills: Sort of in a holding pattern on getting more trucks to do more work.

Jamie Hagen: This is a recent, this week kind of thing. So I don't know how much weight you put into that. But now with this, you know, who knows what tomorrow brings with the president elect Trump, like hopefully maybe the economy turns around. I think we're all just sitting here waiting on our hands, aren't we? I mean we’re kind of like, what do we do? What do we do?

Steve Wilson: I'm Steve Wilson. This is my son, Steve Wilson the second. we went through all kinds of stuff in 22 with my health and everything. Just all of a sudden, the broker person and my wife stepped up. one thing comes to mind for me was I was trying to figure out fuel tax because I'd done everything myself. And I was laying in a hospital bed and couldn't figure it out. And I said, told my wife, I said just sell everything, get out of it. And wasn't 10 minutes later it came to me. Fuel tax program come up. I was able to file on time. We've been pretty lucky. We bought several trucks. we lost one in a fire, electrical, whatever. And then my son here said, get five trucks. And I said, eh, let's wait. So we did purchase three 20, 20 Kenworths automatics. Not really liking automatics, but my guys are starting to love them and everybody wants them now. And we've been pretty lucky as far as freight and everything else. And we're supposed to give another company a quote on I don't know how many rounds they had.

Steve Wilson II: 20 routes, about 20 routes. I'd say about 150 lanes in total.

Todd Dills: That was Steve Wilson II, CW Express owner Wilson's son.

Steve Wilson: all round trips, all automotive stuff.

We've got that other customer in Louisville, BJK, and we always try to take care of her, but knock on wood, we're here for a Reason we ain't going nowhere as far as I'm concerned. And hopefully young man here was at the bank and I was doing everything myself. And I'm like, yeah, they got rid of his position. And I told him, I said, well, you know what, we just bought this building and stuff. We got offices. I said, you step on up and he's doing an amazing job. So cool. And he's a big boy. And drivers don't pay, you know, don't get, don't make Steven mad. The old man's okay, but watch Steven. But again, I, think we're blessed, man, even after all this has happened to me.

Todd Dills: Do you have drivers for those trucks?

Steve Wilson: I do. And we, and we've got two, we.

Steve Wilson II: Got two open ones. So if anyone's looking for a new job. …

Steve Wilson: We've got another guy that keeps walking in and Steven's like, I don't know about him, dad. Let's wait.

Todd Dills: Competing for the 11-30 small fleet champ title belt haling from North up i65 in Sellersburg, Indiana, 17 truck CW Express and owner Steve Wilson come on up and stage. CW Express has shown recent history growth too on the strength in part a dedicated partnership with avenger logistics and the automotive supply chain, their major customer base. Wilson's success small fleet owner is a product of both hard won expertise and service over fleet's history. Steve got his start listening to his uncle diagnosed truck repair issues talking to drivers on the phone over the road in the 1980s. He aspired to be that go to resource to know a truck inside and out such that he can make an effective accurate diagnosis of the phone. Let's just say he is that guy now without doubt as noted his principal partner and Avenger. As they said the times he's had a break there and he makes his own recoveries, even helping other carriers in their network diagnosis to build value with them. He doesn't need to be on site to tell you what's wrong with the truck. Another customer put it up closely and though he takes close care of every aspect of the business, it's clear he's also adept at team buildings with support in place to step up when it was due or die. Back in 2022 he spent much of the year in the hospital losing part of his right leg after complications from and Covid left him close to the ends. Since then though, growth has continued with CW now a new office just off I 65 in Indiana. Steve Wilson. Steve Wilson II CW Express.

Paul Rissler: Paul and Michelle, Rissler. Paul Rissler Transportation, llc. We just changed our name to LLC this year.

Michelle Rissler: I'm, Michelle Rissler, married to Paul and married him for 31 years. And we are. Yeah, I help in the office.

Todd Dills: Anything, anything changed for you guys this year?

Paul Rissler: Yeah. Well, we have all dedicated runs too. And we lost, our one account for a little bit. We just. Okay, they found somebody cheaper, you know, and they gave it to somebody else. And then.

Todd Dills: Yeah, I was gonna say that's ... .

Paul Rissler: Hauling eggs. If a guy comes in, if a nickel cheaper, don't matter if you were doing it for two years. Loyalty and everything doesn't matter to them. They'll let that other person do it just like that. Anyway, that happened to us this year. since we talked, since we got in. But that's not the main thing that happened. The worst thing that happened is one of our, our best drivers came down with cancer, real bad. Stage four. And he had to get off the road. And so he's doing, he's doing good right now. But I had a truck sit for a little bit.

I was gonna leave it, sit there till he got. Gets back in it again. But you just can't leave a whole rig sitting, you know. So I advertise them on Facebook just to my friends. And it didn't take two weeks. I had a new driver in it, and he seems like he's going to run for a long time for us.

And then I told Ryan. Right. His name is Ryan Rissler, my cousin. And I said, when he gets better, we'll just buy him another whole rig and he'll be back in the road again. He just can't wait.

Michelle Rissler: But he was with us for 15 years, so that was hard on us because we never experienced death or that sickness. And he had to quit now.

He was bad. He didn't know it, though.

Paul Rissler: He's doing chemo treatments in Hershey, medical and PA. So everybody can keep him and keep him in our thoughts and prayers.

Todd Dills: how old is Ryan?

Paul Rissler: 47. Too young, you know, for this. When you got a dedicated run, you know, you gotta keep the guys going, or you gotta have somebody there to run that run. And it just made me work harder for a little bit, you know. Cause I take care of all the guys. They all run three weeks on, one week off. So I always take their place when they're all off.

Todd Dills: A big round of Applause for here in Nashville, all the way from headquarters in De Graff, Ohio, small fleet owner Brian Brewer.

Brewer’s got a 15-truck fleet of tractors. Actually it's added a couple more, so I think they're going to be up to 17 here very shortly and some straight dumps. Serving a diverse set of customers between Dayton and Columbus metro areas. Brewer got his start trucking as owner in 2000 with a friend he knew from the local regional auto racing service. Still well, more than a pastime formation with a custom fab shop for race cars attached to his 10,000 square foot EBT truck from headquarters, his willingness and ability to add capacity in direct response to customer needs has paid off as other companies have struggled. Believe it or not, even a time like this, since the beginning of 2023, the company's more than doubled in size to 15 trucks. We spoke to a BBT customer, a supplier of erosion control products and aggregates who sees a shrewd operator and Brewer when it comes to balancing needs of the business with those of his employees and customer, he's very cognizant of the rate and what he needs to manage business imperatives. The customer said too many people will do any job regardless of what the pay is. Brewer is not one. He added however, that when you call him he never hesitates to try to help. Brian is like a go to guy when you need something. Always with a positive attitude. Success has been such that Brewer has been canvassing his area for a bigger facility to continue to grow. Keen to grow the business.

Brian Brewer: I'm Brian Brewer from Brian Brewer Trucking llc. As we've grown is the growth pains that, you know, I'm sure we've all had so far as implementing things that we hadn't implemented before that we needed to put in place to make for sure we stay in compliance and then driver retention. I'm sure that all of us have felt that this year, guys thinking that they need to go somewhere else, that they're worth more and you know, we had to happen. We lost a couple of guys. I had guys that we hire and then they didn't show up and you know, they get to come in for their 90 days and show up for seven days of their first 30 days. So you know, just the driver retention and trying to keep guys in the trucks and treat them fair and treat them like they're part of the family. I'm sure we've all had people that's been with us for a while that's helped us grow and be who we are now and we wouldn't be here with a lot of those guys. And in the same way, I feel like we've been blessed to be able to have a company, to be able to do what we're doing right now. Father, son, duel that I have, the, son's been a friend of my son all his life and he thought he was worth a little bit more money and he left and went to a construction job. And now the last week or so he's been knocking on my door saying, I want to come back, I want to come back. He said, I just need a little time away to figure it out. And, you know, still young, so sometimes that's going to happen. And then when they do go somewhere else and figure out the grass isn't greener than what they thought it was, you know, like I say, I try to treat everybody like their family. So he thought he was out of the family.

Todd Dills: That puts a couple of your trucks idle for now, right? That's happened pretty recently though.

Brian Brewer: Since you announced the last four finalists. That happened. So I have, had a lot of people knocking on the door now wanting jobs. So we just hired three people and I got back in the truck myself instead of doing the office, and Jennifer took over the office duties, trying to help me out to relieve my stress for what we've got going on in there. So. Yeah, but I've had three people come in and we've hired all of them. They start Monday. I hired my first lady in our organization, so I'm, kind of thrilled to see how that actually goes for us.

Todd Dills: Behind the wheel.

Brian Brewer: Behind the wheel, yeah, exactly.

Todd Dills: Brian Brewer there made reference to Jennifer Leasure, his life and business partner who joined us for the talk, but generally was microphone shy, as it were. She plays a valuable part in the business, though, of course, as Brewer noted.

I then pitched the wearing of all hats aspect of small business that Brewer evoked there back to the others assembled. With growth, delegating becomes a necessity, of course. Who helps manage that necessity, I wondered? Jamie Hagen then evoked his wife Hillary.

Jamie Hagen: She's not here right now. No, if it wasn't for her, none of this would even be possible. Going from four trucks to, you know, 12 at one point and then back down to nine now. But it was just, there's no way.

Todd Dills: Like a very short time period too, right?

Jamie Hagen: In the last three years.

Steve Wilson: Well, I had my CDL forever and I found myself out on the truck, picking up loads for the drivers, this, that and the other. And we started getting bigger. And I'm like, you know what, everybody? You do it for one, you gotta do it for rest of them. And I had to go see my sick mom. She had cancer in Cleveland, and my license were up for renewal, and I didn't have my physical. And I said, you know what? Get rid of them. I hate it now because I can't drive these big trucks. I got. They're pretty, but I said, get rid of them. That way. These guys have to do their own work. If. If it takes 10 minutes to go get this load, they'll have to go get it. So, yeah, And I was doing everything with cell phone and pagers. And when did that happen? Oh, how long? 20, 10, wasn't it? Yeah. Just because I had to go up there and sign papers. And she just had a few days. I'm like, I don't need that CDL. We had 10 trucks, seven trucks, something like that. But now let them do it now. I can just boss them around now. And now, like I said, we. We had. Last time we Talked, we had 17 trucks, and we're up to 21 now. And, and how many trailers?

Steve Wilson II: 35, 35.

Steve Wilson: And we were in a little spot we were renting. I was thinking the other day, I'm like, can you imagine if we were still in that little bitty spot compared to what we got? Five and a half. About five and a half acres now. And I'm like, we're. We're stretching it out now, huh?

Steve Wilson II: We had about an acre.

Steve Wilson: We had about an acre before. And I bought my property after all this, I went back for gallbladder issue. And, a guy had bought a piece of property on a building up, and the guy wanted to buy it. I said, no, no, no. And he said, well, this other guy's got this truck driving school for sale. It might interest you. He's already got a building up. And I'm sitting there on the phone IV'd up. And I ended up selling my priest property and buying another piece of property. My IV was going off, and Mr. Gas, like, Steve, what is that? I said, it's my iv, sir. He said, you okay? I said, I'm only here for a couple days to go, but I'll be fine, trust me. He said, well, I like talking to you, and, you got to give me some money down, and I'll give you 45 days. And I called my bank lady, and it was great. And we're right off the interstate right there near Louisville. It's just amazing.

We're lucky.

Todd Dills: How long have you been involved in the business.

Steve Wilson II: Officially?

Steve Wilson: He used to be my tire guy on Saturdays.

Steve Wilson II: Ever Since I was 12, I've been doing tires. Always tires, mount, dismount, everything. And then, after I worked at the bank for about nine months, I moved over to the office. And and not getting old, I.

Steve Wilson: Couldn't do without it now because we got so many routes and drivers and stuff and everybody wants. Try to equal everybody out.

Steve Wilson II: So everybody gets like, you have like dementia sometimes. Constantly asking me about one specific route every single day. ‘Don't worry, we got it.’

Steve Wilson: So I'm glad he's there instead, of me doing everything. I could ask his opinion and it helps.

Steve Wilson II: And you're too nice. I had to be the bad cop all the time, especially when it comes to drivers. Yeah, it's not the 80s or 90s anymore, old man.

Todd Dills: Clearly a little tough love amongst the Wilsons at CW Express. From 23 year old son to father, in this case. The Risslers have involved family closely too, managing their affiliate shop and all truck maintenance in addition to work for outside customers.

Paul Rissler: Our younger son is 22 or 21, I guess, I don't know. He thinks he knows it all. You know he's going to tell the drivers how to do. I said, look, he said, dad, one time, he goes, dad, you're two-faced. You, you're mad at this guy. And then this guy comes in, you're like, hey, how's it going? I said, no, no, no, that's not two face. You gotta have know your personalities and everybody. You can't take your personality or your character, your anger out on this driver. I just walked in, doesn't know you're angry. You know, you gotta change and be nice to this guy. That's how tr. That's how it is.

Steve Wilson II: I learned that from the bank real fast.

Steve Wilson: Well, we made the deal on three trucks. They were in Kansas City and I was on fly three drivers out there and I said, Steven, you're going too. I mean you go to represent. And he had to ride back with one of them. Of course, that was the city man he rode back with. He's like, I should have rode back with Ken the road guy.

Steve Wilson II: But not Ken. Ken was. Ken would be there in like four hours.

Paul Rissler: Someone been with me for 20 years and I know their character and I know when they're ready to blow up, you know, when you gotta stop talking to them or being, you know, just right. So then my kid comes along, he thinks he can just do the same thing and it's like, no, stop, he's gonna leave. He'll be so mad at you, he's gone, he'll quit for us, you know, Right.

Steve Wilson: I would have get mad at me a minute ago. Because he does Toledo, Ohio every day. And I say, your load ain't going Friday and Saturday. He's well, Bob said it's going. I said, yeah, but another guy ain't worked any. So you go home, have your weekend, let this other guy have a paycheck too.

Brian Brewer: So biggest challenges is when you're going about that and getting the guys to go and do extras whenever it needs to be done. A lot of them, you know, with my guys, my guys come in at 5 leave by 5, you know, we have bankers hours, it seems like, and that's what they get used to that. And then when something comes up on a Saturday that we've got to do or in the evening, it's like, I need you to go do this. It's like, well, I got my kids and I got this and I got that. And it's like, you know, I get it. We all have families and we have lives out of here, but sometimes, you know, I don't ask for a lot, but when I do, it's what needs to be done for the business itself. And a lot of guys just don't understand that because they're not in our roles that, you know, it's what sustains your business, what you keep doing. And, you know, taking care of those customers are what keeps you going and paying your bills. But they don't realize it pays their bills too.

Paul Rissler: My dad would never line a load up until he was empty back in the 80s and 90s because you didn't know. What if you broke down? What if you didn't make it? What if you didn't do this? What if you don't? Nothing holds out. We have our loads lined up a week in advance. All my guys are running all the time. They're never deadheading. Back and forth.

Todd Dills: One round for all the marbles in a 3 to 10 truck division of Overdrive’s small fleet championship. Hailing all the way from California, California town, that is, Missouri.

Welcome to the stage Paul Rissler Transportation owners Paul and Michelle Rissler.

The Risslers have managed a fleet of six trucks, give or take. Now for more than 1/4 century in business running refrigerated freight in the refrigerated carrier network of Dutchland Refrigerated out of Pennsylvania, among other customers. One customer lauded service from the Risslers with a relationship that stretches over close to 30 years. That speaks highly of the caliber of drivers and equipment they provide. Allowing drivers to perform their job. LTL freight takes a driver that wants to come to work every day and get the job done and then is a exactly what they do. The Risslers maintain their charge largely themselves in house through the Rissler LLC shop business they run with their sons, keeping it in the family and also performing custom work for clients there. Better yet, several years ago, significantly, they set out on a path to become a debt free business, achieving the goal three years ago. Now profits have benefited of course. The matching cash reserves effectively has allowed them to keep reefer trailer pool in pristine condition among other things to serve the sustenance of the supply chain. As Paul said about that, if you always haul food, you should never go broke. Everybody's got to eat. He stayed that course. There was interesting temptation several times to swap other types of framings presented in carry. There’s longevity value, though, in those known knowns, if you're good at one thing, stick with it. He said, perfect it. It's like playing basketball, baseball, football. You’ll never master all three. Paul and Michell Rissler, Rissler Transportation.

Paul Rissler: But I did not tell you this and we lost that load of eggs. Throw that around. We did get them back. We just, we hooked up with somebody else and started hauling them their stuff beyond meats to Pennsylvania. And they gave us like five, six loads a week and we only can handle three at the PA and but they give us all we want. And then three weeks later the egg guys are calling us out and say, can you run for us again? Well now they're offering us two loads a week, actually four loads a week of eggs. And we, we only take two because we got hooked up with this other company. Now, you know, they kind of lost out.

Todd Dills: What happened, did they tell you what happened with the

Paul Rissler: Yeah, another broker came in and cut the rate so bad I called that broker up and I asked him how much they pay to go back. He said they dropped $1,000. I said I'm not touching your load. I will not haul it.

Three weeks later they're giving it back to this broker that we offer all the time directly they gave us back and they're now there.

Brian Brewer: My business is a lot different from you guys’.

Todd Dills: Been a bit since we heard from him but that's the voice of Brian Brewer again.

Brian Brewer: You know with us doing dump trailers and hauling scrap and everything. I mean my customers own all their trailers but for one.

Paul Rissler: The last week or two, Hauling a bunch of Republicans, eh?

Brian Brewer: Yeah I was trying to. Yeah, no I'm hauling the geese and the cats as they say. A lot of my growth has come like we've talked before within my customer base. you know and the challenges with them it's like you know when they're calling it's like okay I'll see what I can do. You know and I'm grateful.

Todd Dills: And sometimes that means go buy another truck and find another driver.

Brian Brewer: Exactly. Find more drivers, find another truck. We've got a job that's getting ready to start here. We've been waiting for the city to sign off on it and we're going to put three to five more trucks just on that job at Saul Loan and then a couple others that I'm doing right now to cover everybody. We figured we're going to be maybe next year I'll be up to 20 trucks if things go right so hopefully it will. More tires, more fuel, more expense, more.

Steve Wilson: Out of the checkbook.

Todd Dills: Well north of the Risslers in Aberdeen South Dakota it's Jamie and Hillary Hagen of Hell Bent Express. As recently as 2020 Jamie Hagen was just a one truck owner-operator. By the end of 2023 the Hagens business was all built eight trucks mostly pulling dry vans. Today he's continued to add units to year to what is a highly fuel-efficient operation. Hagen's social media followers know well that fuel is a four letter word for him. He personally averages 10 miles per gallon and seeks to impart just how he does that with the wider trucking world and the drivers employed in his all Mac fleet. Though the challenges of the current rate environment are certainly well known, the Hagens have focused in on the personal nature of customer service even more critical in a time with the president important broker customer at Hell Bent Express we spoke to lauded Hell Bent as being easily in the top five carriers in her network of more than 6,500 trucking companies. Hagen cares about the product he hauls, she said, he cares about how he's representing my company as much as he's representing his own. He does everything in a timely manner. If he does not have a truck when I call, he's going to work on getting a truck there. In illustrating service excellence, she noted at the time a load had shifted in route that one of Hayden's drivers called in about. Jamie actually hired the company to fix it. So when he showed up at the receiver, it's when the driver showed up at the receiver, it was loaded properly. And most carriers, she felt, would just say, not my problem, hold out, hope the load didn't get refused. It might well be the very dictionary definition of hellbent when it comes to customer service. Jamie and Hillary Hagen.

Jamie Hagen: I mean, for me, the challenge, the big challenge going forward is I wouldn't say it was easy to go from one to where I'm at. It definitely was difficult, but it feels like you plateau, like you kind of get to a point where now you have to spend more to get to that next level. Like if I wanted to double now I need to add more people in the office. and then that expense almost has to occur before that happens because then that becomes too much and then someone has to quit driving. So there's all these logistics that have to happen that I don't as a driver, I've never encountered before. So it's like what you don't know, you don't know. So that's the hard part is reaching out to guys that have done it and trying to understand how they made that leap.

So that way maybe I can learn something instead of learning it the hard way. Making those big mistakes.

Todd Dills: Or, I think we've got an example of finding that out and just.

Paul Rissler: Staying right where you are, staying right where we're at. I like our dedicated runs. I like who we got. Just stick with your eight trucks or nine trucks, whatever you got, and be happy. Because I'll tell you right now, the more you make, the more you're going to spend. It doesn't matter. You can have one truck and we probably make out about the same amount. If I drove every day, you know, just the truck like the driver does every week, we'd probably make the same amount. When it all is done with expenses and stuff. And tires. Tires and oil maintains the most expensive part of your truck.

Todd Dills: When you're thinking about the future, what, do you, what are you worried about in terms of positioning, the business for continued success?

Paul Rissler: Well, the only thing, the most thing we probably think about is how we're going to do this when we aren't doing it no more. When are you going to end it? You just don't. We just, we have our sons. They want to, we want them to kind of transition over and take over, but they don't want it. They want to work on the trucks. They don't want to drive. They don't want to.

Todd Dills: They're in the shop, right?

Paul Rissler: They're in the shop 100%. One son is in the office helping Michelle now. Finally, she does all the paperwork. If it wasn't for her, you ought to talk to her because she does, keep everybody together. No, she runs the show.

Michelle Rissler: Our biggest challenge was, is I wanted to be. I wanted to hand over smoothly to our children because they've always helped us and our family is mostly family. There's a few outside truckers, I mean not with the Rissler name, but, and we made that goal of getting debt free. And I know that is not in everybody's world, but we made it and we fought it for two years. I scream, kicked and said, we are doing this and we did it. So I mean that's huge because a business is expensive.

Paul Rissler: When you're debt free. It's so much easier. Buy a truck. We just bought a 23 Kenworth and you know, just write a check out for it. It's so much easier. But I'm telling you, we were in debt for 27 years. Then I got these 24 year old drivers. We want to be just like you. We want to own this. You know, it's like look at them and say, I started out 21 first my truck first new truck or not new truck. It's my used truck bought from my mom and dad. And it just takes you. It took 27 years to get where I'm at. Don't keep looking at us and saying we want. You know, you got, you're making too much money off us, so it's like you're debt free. I didn't make that much money off him.

Brian Brewer: ‘You own all them trucks. How much money you got?’

Michelle Rissler: It's still the same money. Yeah, yeah, it really is. It's the same money in, same money out. But now we're different. Instead of paying interest now we're putting that money towards our retirement.

Todd Dills: You do feel like it sets you up to, to be able to hand something, hand it over to your children.

Paul Rissler: I don't want to put them in debt, but yet they have to buy the stuff. I bought my dad's stuff when he went out of business in 2002. I started out in 97 and then he had four or five trucks.

And I grew up in them all my life. We were, we were trucking family all our life. But we went on our own because my mom and I felt like.

Brian Brewer: We felt like you. ‘No, they did it wrong.’

Paul Rissler: I ran, I ran hard. And when it was time for new tires, dad said, I ain't got no money for tires. Go run hard, you know, And I'd get irritated. We said, we're going to make sure we've never run recaps on our road trucks ever, ever. And my dad always run recaps but you know, those are the things we made our mindset ...

Michelle Rissler: It would be fun to watch what our children decide, you know, what, how they'll run it. I mean they're doing great now, but.

Paul Rissler: They think we're crazy. We should have electric trucks now. You know.

Brian Brewer: But anyway, I do run recaps because of my industry.

Paul Rissler: Yeah, you're going to tear up your tire.

Steve Wilson: I got a national account with CR England. And so whatever price I pay here, I pay there. So. And it's a discount. And my rep guy said, Steve, I said, man, I got all these casings, I need to get rid of them. I have to pay to get rid of all these. I got like 60 of them. He said, Steve, as long as they're good American virgin casings, cap them one time and knock on wood. I don't think flat tires is our biggest issue. And when the guy comes in, tires wore out, might have a little chunk, take them both off. It's so cheap. Put two on.

Brian Brewer: So we're in a scrap. So you know, we go in and out of the yards that we go into, it makes it and I've got it. I always tell the guys, when you pull off the scales, wherever you're at, check the tires, you know. And I got a guy last week, he went through three tires in one week.

And it's like, really dude? I mean, come on, do your job. That's all I ask.

Steve Wilson: Because running them flat.

Brian Brewer: It blew out.

Because it was because you didn't do your job and did your pre and post.

Steve Wilson: Why is it lumpy? I said, I tell you exactly why you let it run low on air. Oh, there's no way. I'm like, check.

Brian Brewer: Yeah, I go through that a lot. Yeah, it wasn't that way this morning. Did you really check it, though? That's the question.

Todd Dills: You've been in a growth phase here quite recently. Last couple years, you almost doubled the size you've added. I think you're adding more trucks now.

Brian Brewer: Yeah, we're looking at possibly adding, you know, like I said, that customer needs three to five trucks. So if we go that route, we're at 15 right now. So we'll probably be maybe sometime spring, summer, we'll probably be about 20 trucks if things go the way we predict it to go. But, you know, anything can happen between now and then, too. But, challenges really, that I've faced is growth and the quick growth, because I really didn't get back into owning trucks on my own until 18 again. And within, you know, the five years, I've exceeded the growth that I thought I would actually have. So I told her, you know, our projections was maybe five to nine trucks by our fifth year. Not thinking that we'd be at 15 by now. And the learning curves as far as paperwork, regulations, and the difference in the insurance was costing us to do that. So me wearing many, many hats and trying to still, I'm doing old school stuff and I've had to implement. I mean, I'm still even writing my payroll down and paper to give to the guys or, you know, paper checks out of my own personal account. So I know those are the challenges that I have to make it more business like.

Todd Dills: It's kind of like what Jamie was talking about in that notion of being like, right at the edge of, okay, what do I do here? Do I go more trucks or more people or do it at the same time? How's it working? It sounds like you've gone a little bit almost beyond with the trucks.

Brian Brewer: I went beyond the truck expectations for sure. Because even our business plan, it was funny. I just came across my business plan in the beginning and I went back and I looked at it and I'm like, wow, I never dreamed that we would be where we're at right now. But again, I'm blessed to have it. And I'm trying to put her into a role, Jennifer into the role now of helping out in the office and take a little bit of stress off of me. And with me being in the truck right now because we're down a couple of people, she's had to step up and come to the office and help me out and picking parts up, taking parts and doing everything that I would normally be doing. And, I don't know, being back in the truck, it's been all right with me because it puts me back in front of my customers. And when you walk in, they were like, oh, we thought you were permanently gone. We didn't know you were still around. Yeah, exactly. So it's good to go back to your customers and see them. And, you know, I still go every try, once a week, see a different customer and just meet up with them and see how things are going and seeing things change and how my drivers are doing and how they're taking care of them also. So it's been okay to be back in a truck right at this moment.

Todd Dills: Steve, you guys have been on, well, you personally. Well, everybody at the company been on a wild ride, in the last few years. But what, what's next?

Steve Wilson II: Biggest issue mechanic.

Steve Wilson: Well, yeah, he's young.

I used to do everything. And my insurance man, he'd come see me, he's like, Steve, he said, how do you do it? I said, what do you mean? He said, you're. Your maintenance records just spot on when he brings me reports and all that stuff. And I said, well, when it comes in, I look at them, I fix them. Of course I had my issues. And then, I had a buddy of mine, I knew I was a better mechanic than him, but he, he supposedly was a shop foreman for a couple years at the company. And he said, steve, I'll come over there. That lasted. Yeah, he wasn't as good as I.

Steve Wilson II: Eight months, ten months somewhere.

Steve Wilson: And that's fine if you, if you make better yourself. Go on, I'll be fine. He was worried about me. I said, we've been friends forever. I said, just go on, I'll be fine. I left a shop one day and I heard click, click, click in my back tire of my car. So I stopped. I got out looking like, what is that? It's a new car. What's up? A sheriff pickup truck pulled up next to me, said, buddy, you okay? Nobody had a dead end road. I'm like, yeah, just got a click and noise. This young man popped out, got on the ground. I'm like, buddy, you ain't got to do all that. If something's wrong, it's going to the dealer we're going to get it fixed. He jumped back in the car. And his dad was a sheriff or whatever, deputy sheriff. And, he said this was like two or three days after my mechanic left. He said, you're not looking for a diesel mechanic, are you? That's the truth. I'm like, by fact I am. I said. He said, this man right here. So how you feel about changing tires? He said, that's easy. Like I said, I'm the master at changing tires. Let's go. He's 19, and I have find myself. I have to get my mental state to where I have to check everything thing. We put spindles on a W9 the other day, or he did. I'm like, I need to go out there and make sure they're okay because it's a big truck. And he done all right. Just some stuff he doesn't do like I would do.

Todd Dills: He's getting there, though.

Steve Wilson: And we were working on a 379. Pete. He had the front end jacked up, doing something to it. And I was back there working on a leveling valve. And it was my fault. Normally I work by myself. I didn't check anything. But the level valve wouldn't work. I got it to work. It started airing up. Well, when it aired up, the frame moved. Truck fell on its belly, fell on the frame. And he hollered before it did. He was just on the one side. Nothing busted. Everything was fine. And it took us an hour and a half to get it back up. I said, clayton, I said, dude, it's half my fault. I said, be patient, because one day you're going to be a good mechanic. You need to go through all this stuff to see. So I think he's going to be okay. And our biggest challenge right now, like you said, I'm doing everything by paper. I gotta learn how to excel.

Steve Wilson II: Spreadsheets, I see them in my nightmares.

Steve Wilson: We need a program. We got somebody in mind. And we miss bills sometimes because we do so many. We might miss one. Well, that's a thousand dollars. Ah, easy. My biggest goal after, after all that happened to me. And I, kept everything to myself and done everything. I got grandbabies now. You know what I'm gonna build legacy for them kids. And, hey, my grandpa built that. That's what I'm here for.

Paul Rissler: With all of us here, we take it for granted, what we know and do you know how to work on trucks? I do too. People come in there and say, I have a truck cut in half. I'm Stretching and they say, where do you go from here? They walk in there, they just. Their minds boggled.

And we just take it for granted.

Steve Wilson: We got an engine tore apart, injectors and stuff laying on the table. Don't move them. They're in order.

Jamie Hagen: Passing it down at the truck stop.

But now nobody does that. so now it's all digital. So the only way we could pass it down, you know, my dad passed it down to me because, you know, I was there learning it with him. But now I. I have five daughters, so. And none of them are interested in truck. None of them at all. Not even a bit. So that's my thing is like you guys are talking about, what do you do when it comes time to, you know, you want to retire? What do you do with this? Now? Like, that's, to me, it's. It's in my mind. It's going to be out there digitally, you know what I mean? Like, passing that on to people who pick up the magazine or read an article or social media, read a tweet.

Steve Wilson II: Looking to retire soon? How much you want watching these numbers?

Jamie Hagen: Aggressive. Yeah.

Steve Wilson: And what gets me is I was 10 years old painting old dating wheels for my dad years ago now, like, I hate this. I hate this. And, my grandfather, my uncle, my dad bought a truck, my dad drove it. And what I always wonder is what was their plan? You know, I never got to ask them that. They're all gone. But what was their plan? You know, if they would. Yeah, if they could see me now. That's the only thing I can say.

Todd Dills: If indeed they could see him now, they'd see that their plan for the young Steve Wilson, such as it may have been front of mind or implied or just happened by virtue of circumstance, those men would see that they effectively paid it forward, just as Wilson himself is doing now with Steve ii, and as are all four of our Small Fleet Champ finalists. A big thanks to all of them. Jamie Hagen of Hell Bent Express, Brian Brewer and Jennifer Lezer of Brian Brewer. Chucking Paul and Michelle Rissler with Paul Rissler Transportation. Steve and Steve II with CW Express. Thank you all for joining us in the Small Fleet Champ effort, part of our own efforts to tell the stories of exceptional owners and as Hagen noted, pay trucking knowledge forward digitally of the fashion. You can find each owner's story as well as those of several other semifinalists via Overdriveonline.com/Small-fleet-Champ. Big congrats to CW and Rissler on the wins. But know that each and every one of these fleet stories offers something to take to the bank when if like them, it's your goal to grow and prosper long term.